Leg shao yin (kidney) sinew treatments

[Paul Reynolds]

Hi everyone,

Just a practical question, it’s not something I have encountered yet but…

If I wanted to treat a pain in the spine elicited on seated rotation (indicating leg shao yin), would it be best to needle the posterior aspect of the spine or needle over the abdomen to honour the “yin” quality of the channel?

I hope that makes sense, I’ve thought a lot about it before writing this and I reason that with good cultivation and razor sharp intention you could do either but lets assume that both are very much a work in progress ha ha ha.

What would/do you do?

[Antoine Mulpas]

Hi Paul,

I didn’t have this presentation in my practice, but I’ll try my best. As the KI Sinew is not streching far on the abdomen, you could work there with the patients lying on their back, and then work on their back when they are lying on the abdomen. I would do this way if I encounter this case.
You could also inquire more about the location of pain. If they have pain on the lower abdomen when rotating, then you focus there. If it is on the spine, I think you can forget about the abdomen.
Also when needling the spine, I would go for the Hua Tuo points and working down along the KI Sinew.
Hope that helps,
Antoine

[Armin]

Hi Paul,

Further to Antoine’s input, if you were to do a sinew treatment, then you would go through the assessment steps: 1) location of pain, 2) movement causing pain, and 3) pulse assessment.

Location of pain is the spine, so you would work the leg shao yin sinew channel.
Movement is the seated rotation, so you would work the leg shao yang sinew channel (any twisting or lateral turning of torso).
If there is any pulse that is tight and in the 1-6 bean position, then you work the sinew channel associated with that pulse position as well. If no such pulse, then you simply do the first two steps from interior to exterior.

For good measure, you could do a bit of leg Tai yang which is right next to the spine. So, first leg shao yin, then leg shao yang and then a bit of leg tai yang work close to the area of pain at the spine.

Given that the leg shao yin has the main portion in the front, you would start with the patient in supine, then turn them to the side and work the spine. This transitions to the leg shao yang while they are in lateral recumbent. And then face down for some Taiyang work.

Armin

[Antoine Mulpas]

Hi Armin,

Do you have better results using the leg shao yang for the rotational movement in a seated position than the leg shao yin ?
From what I understand, the leg shaoyin is for rotation with a bend limb, so I’ll always assume than the seated position was fitting into this category.
If you have more insight on this it would be great.
Thank you,
Antoine

[Armin]

Hi Antoine,

I’m not sure about better results but my understanding has always been that if you are seated and turn your torso from side to side, in other words when you twist your torso while sitting (or standing for that matter), this is a shao yang movement. Leg shao yin only happens as you described it, a bend limb crossing the midline and medially twisting.

Again, that’s my understanding. If others have gotten results with leg shao yin from seated rotation, then it goes to show you that if the intention is there, you can still get to it.

Armin

[Paul Reynolds]

Thank you both so much for your input. I myself was of the understanding that rotation of the spine whilst seated is leg shao yin and shao yang was rotation whilst upright/extended but perhaps this needs ammended? I was assuming that the part of the leg shao yin channel along the inside of the spine was to facilitate this seated rotation but the idea that shao yin is crossing the midline makes sense too. I need to re-watch Ann’s video but my old dusty laptop doesn’t like those videos for some reason lol. Will steal my wife’s ipad….

Anyway, I now have a good sense of things for either way of working and really grateful for the feedback – it’s these wee details that sit in my mind and bug me.

[Armin]

Hi Paul,

This was a good one because it made me think too, and eventually I went through my notes after the last post. What I have down is that medial rotation, or crossing the midline of a bent limbs (upper or lower) would relate to a Shao yin movement. While, lateral rotation of the limbs as well torso would be Shao yang.

Hope this helps.
Armin

[Paul Reynolds]

Hi Armin,
Thank you again – I really appreciate your time and it does help very much 🙂
Cheers

[Antoine Mulpas]

Hi Armin and Paul,

Maybe we can ask Ann in the next chat about this, I’m sure she has tips to differentiate between the two.
Thank you both of you for your input, it helps to clarify and check what we know (or think we know!)
Cheers,
Antoine

[Paul Reynolds]

Hi Antoine,
I think that’s a great idea. I did watch the video again this morning but still not totally clear about this specific movement lol (although I suspect that Armin is right as there is no crossing the midline). It also got me wondering about external rotation with bent limb – shao yang? I have been treating any pain with rotation of bent limb as shao yang up to this point… Poor Ann, it must never end for her!
I haven’t signed up the the chat yet as the timing is out for me to get involved in real time but I intend on joining soon to watch all the previous episodes.

Really enjoying this forum though.

All the best

[Armin]

Hello again,

So recently, I have been thinking more about this question of whether low back rotation while in a seated position is shao yin or shao yang. I think I would have to agree with you guys that it’s actually shao yin movement given that the body is retracted (shao yin) when the the rotation is happening. The shao yang movements are while the body or limbs are in an extension position.

I actually tried it while seated and you definitely use your adductors (leg shao yin) when rotating. When standing and rotating, I could feel the leg shao yang muscles engaging more.

I hope I haven’t confused things for others who had it right all along 😉

Armin

[Paul Reynolds]

Hi Armin,

I like that you actually DID the movement! Not sure why I didn’t think of that lol!
Yes, my mind keeps coming back to the shao yang being on rotation with straight limb / torso (just been listening to a JY sinew channels lecture actually) so that would suggest rotation with bent torso must be shao yin. Apart from anything else though, it’s so good to have these types of conversations in order to learn.
Think I might go and actually do these movements and feel it for myself.

Cheers for now 🙂

[Author]

Posts